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Shiro Hatori
Okay, hello, everyone. Welcome to the higher ed demand gen podcast hosted by concept 3d. If you like our content, please follow and subscribe to us on Spotify, Apple or Google, wherever you listen to us. My name is Shiro Hatori. And I will be your host today. And I’m really looking forward to talking about how to craft compelling student testimonials and content to enroll to increase enrollment yield. And for the conversation, I have a very special guests here today. I got John Aczone. Joining us, He is the owner of unveiled and also the host of the higher ed storytelling University podcast. Welcome to the show.

John Azoni
Yeah, thanks for having me. Great to be here.

Shiro Hatori
So John, I asked all my guests this right. Tell me what you love about higher ed.

John Azoni
You know, I think I think within higher ed, there’s so much there’s it’s such a goldmine for stories, and I think like for for what I do with with telling stories, there’s there’s such a variety of you know, walks of life within a college campus. And reasons they go to college and where they go after college. It’s just such a it’s such a transformational time of life. That I just think that there’s there’s so many opportunities to tell meaningful stories within within higher ed specifically that are unique to higher ed that I think don’t exist in the same way, in any other context. So that would be my favorite thing about it.

Shiro Hatori
Thanks for sharing that. And yeah, I totally agree. Like, I’m reconnected with my alma mater, which is University of Colorado as of recently, just because there’s been all this energy and hype around coach prime. I don’t know if you’ve heard of him, but I have, yeah, like, yeah, like it. Those stories are what keeps me like tied to my alma mater. And, you know, it just shows how powerful storytelling really is. Great. Well, can you tell us actually a little bit more about your podcast, right, I want our audience to know, you know, what kind of stories and guests you have on your show? Yeah,

John Azoni
it’s called Higher Ed storytelling University. And originally started off as, you know, just a platform for me to talk about storytelling to talk about like, like narrative storytelling and how to do that, well. Eventually started having guests on the show, and then it really kind of opened up to what I call lowercase s storytelling, which is, which is sort of like the broader accepted term of of storytelling of really like marketing, content creation, and how do you create meaningful content that resonates with with viewers and tells the story of your institution over time? So on the show, yeah, we do talk about, you know, what it means to tell an actual story. But we also have a lot of guests on it just talked about, you know, marketing and talking about content creation. We’ve had guests on talking about email marketing strategies, and how do you how do you connect with people through through email? So it’s a lot of it’s a lot of conversation about, you know, how do you create content, either through text or through video? That is going to strike the right chord with your audience. Yeah, so that’s been a lot of fun. I that’s one of my favorite parts about running my business is is actually doing the podcast. So it’s, it’s a lot of fun to to have new people and come up with new topics and things like that. So

Shiro Hatori
yeah, I couldn’t agree more. This podcast is definitely my favorite part of my job here at concept 3d as well. So it’s, I’m on board there. What can you tell us a little bit more about the lowercase s in the capitalist? Is there more of a backstory there?

John Azoni
Well, I think when when it comes to storytelling, like when you say, let me tell you a story. Someone’s going to actually think they’re going to expect an actual story like this happened to me, then this happened, you know, and then I ended up here and, and blah, blah. You know, I just think like, if you’re at a party, and, you know, you, you say to someone, oh, I’ve got a great story for you. And then you just list a bunch of information. You know, like, our institution is great for all these reasons, and blah, blah, blah, you know, and you should come here, they would be like, what’s the story? You know, so, so I think like, capital S storytelling is like actual stories, you know, but but I think that we use the word storytelling in a broader sense, like, much in the same way that I think like, you know, Gen Z, will will say literally, for everything, they literally just means like an emphasis word. It doesn’t literally mean literally. So, gotcha. So I think I would say there’s like capital S storytelling, which is actual narrative stories like, you would tell this to someone, and then this is an actual story. And then there’s what I would call lowercase storytelling, which is sort of the act of creating content over time that as a whole, sort of communicates the value of your of your organization. And so we try to embrace both, both on on the on the podcast.

Shiro Hatori
Got it, thanks for explaining, yeah, that helps me, like having lowercase storytelling, it’s like having it more ingrained in your overall strategy, like in every piece of content that you create, like, somewhere along those lines, would I say?

John Azoni
Yeah, I think like, you know, because one thing I pay attention to, and I think it’s the sort of the curse of being a, you know, a marketer, content creator is, like, on on a look on packaging, you know, for like, so I got this oatmeal recently, it was like, I don’t know, my wife bought it, some sort of oatmeal. And I, you know, God’s like, when I’m in when I’m eating cereal or something, I’m like, I like read the packaging. And it said, like ours, our story, and it had the founders like picture on there. And then it was just like, these are from ancient grains of blah, blah, blah, from the mountains, or I can’t remember what it said. But he’s really just like, talking about the quality of the product. And I’m kind of like, this is a perfect example of like, that’s not a story. Like that’s, you’re communicating the value of your, of your product, which is a very loose interpretation of what it means to tell us to do storytelling. So that’s kind of what I would call like lowercase s storytelling, which is sort of like, here’s the value of what we’re offering, here’s our why. And people and people tend to couch that in the storytelling compartment. But there’s a difference between that and like, what’s an actual narrative story where there’s a character and you know, there’s problems and there’s some element of transformation? And so yeah, got it. Both are good. No, that’s

Shiro Hatori
totally fine. That’s that example helps a lot. So like my example with Coach prime would be like the biggest story, whereas the products and goods you sell and the information behind you know what, it’s where it’s coming from the history behind the company, that lowercase s. Gotcha. Cool. Okay. That’s the first time I’ve heard someone use the differences. So well,

John Azoni
that’s just because I made it up. I didn’t. You won’t find that in any textbook. I just that’s just how I think about it.

Shiro Hatori
Maybe it’ll become a thing. And you’ll, you’ll get to coin it. That’s yeah. Awesome. All right. Well, like let’s let’s jump into these topics here we got today. So first one I wanted to cover is around increasing enrollment yield, using social proof. And with unveiled and with your background in lowercase storytelling, or an uppercase storytelling? Have you figured out a way to really craft a compelling student testimonial and create that content? Can you tell us a little bit more about what you do?

John Azoni
Yeah, so for context unveiled, we’re a video production company, and we work with schools primarily on a subscription basis for, for, for telling students and alumni, success stories or testimonials. And so we kind of work on like a year long sort of view of their storytelling content, and drip out monthly, Student Alumni testimonials. So we’ve done a lot of these. And there are certain things that I personally look for in a story when I am working with a school, and it really is like, you know, the thing that we’re looking for is, is really what, what makes a good story. And I would say that’s it comes down to several things. One would be that there is an actual story there to begin with. Now, I don’t think that every testimonial has to be some dramatic story of transformation. Sometimes it is just good to get someone on there. You know, on video, or, or in print, however you do your storytelling, saying great things about the school. You know, that’s that’s essentially what a review a Google review is doing. That’s the function a Google review is surfing is social proof. Someone else like me, had a great experience, and maybe I could have a great experience too. So those are those are good. And then but but I think to take that a step further are finding those stories that really have a narrative arc to them. So I look at storytelling in a very, very basic sort of three part, you know, structure of like, is there there’s sort of some sort of transformation. So there’s an old, old normal, there’s the way things were. Then there’s some sort of turn Turning Point moments, and then there’s a new normal. And I think that that structure fits really well, with student and alumni testimonials, because that’s really what you want your college to be doing is facilitating that transformation from they were here, not where they wanted to be in life. And then, you know, and then you catapulted them to this other place, which is where they wanted to be in life, or maybe in a better place than they even expected they would be. So really, it’s it’s, it’s finding stories that have that, that sort of that sort of arc of transformation.

And that can come in, in a lot of different forms. But, but really looking for some sort of, some sort of, from and to so we we worked with

a school recently, where it’s a business school in California, and they had one of the students there was studying, getting his MBA, but he came to the school because he was, he was doing work with human trafficking survivors. And he wanted to further his education in business, so that he could take this back to this organization, and, you know, further develop this work. And so, you know, then the story became, you know, his experience with, with the business school and all the things that, you know, he kind of went through, to be able to then get to a place where he’s further in his career passion for helping human trafficking survivors and using business as a as a as a force for good in that way. So, like, I think that’s a great example of, you know, there’s an actual narrative there, there’s that it’s not just someone on camera saying, I wanted to go to business school. So I went to business school, and it was great. And here’s the professors I liked. And, you know, I graduated, and now I’m, now I have my degree. So there was this sort of element of novelty, like there’s something deeper than just what it meant to go get an academic experience. But then there was also this, this, this, this arc of transformation where he, you know, started here, not having the skills, he needed to really do all the things that he wanted to do for human trafficking survivors. But But going through this process, and then now feeling confident in that. And then, in the middle, there’s, there’s all these opportunities to kind of insert other benefits, because part of his story was, he experienced mental health struggles in school. And so it was an opportunity for us to talk about, like, some of the roadblocks, that people that students will go through at, you know, at your school, as as they’re going along. You know, they’re they’re experiencing mental health, do you have the resources for them? How are you supporting them in that student journey. And so that, so I liked his story, because it had some layers to it. So that’s kind of how I think about story storytelling is finding finding stories that have like a old normal turning point and a new normal. And then within that turning point, I think that’s a really powerful spot in the storytelling structure where you can get specific and I think good stories really are an opportunity to get specific. So obviously, someone’s on your website, or wherever, and they’re watching this, this video of the student that went to your school and had a good experience. So they expect they expect that the student isn’t going to say bad things about the school. You know, that obviously, they’re gonna say good things about the school but What specifically can you zero in on because when you land into like, when you get down into specifics, that’s where most of the emotion really lies. That’s where people can start to resonate with what the student is saying see themselves in that story. They can feel seen feel heard feel understood. So that turning point, part of the story like when I’m crafting questions for to interview a student or alumni with you know, we’re crafting questions around those three points, what are what are what are questions that are going to get us responses that tell us like, where they were, where where they ended up, but then also let’s let’s really dig into this turning point, like was there a moment where you felt like something was changing, or you felt like you were in the right place, or just you had some moment that was significant in your academic journey? And I think that it’s that really that turning point moment that really it’s just it’s just a powerful for For as social proof for other students to hear.

Shiro Hatori
Great, thanks, Shawn, thanks for sharing that framework. I like how you went into detail about, like, making sure to be specific. And I think your use case of, of telling the story around the student resources available was interesting, because this relates to another follow up question I have, but I think most institutions, you know, they have the resources listed on the website, or they’ll give you the information, you know, with the PDF or printout during your orientation week. And then like, that’s it right, but like the hearing come from a student, right, like, as a testimony or a video is, is, is a bit different than getting listed on your website, or, you know, getting, hey, we have these resources listed on a pamphlet, so I thought that was unique. Um, yeah, I think that, I’ll go ahead with that. Yeah,

John Azoni
I was just gonna say, I think I think that like, storytelling is not something that we do once or twice and check the box and call it good. I had Jamie hunt from a CMO at Old Dominion University on my podcast, in a recent episode, talking about telling stories of people with disabilities and mental health struggles, are often a big part of that. And it’s, it’s, it’s so prevalent in, in schools that and I experienced this when I was in college, too, of just, you know, having some unexpected feelings that you’ve never dealt with before. And to hear stories of students that also felt feel that way, and got help, or felt supported in some way, or even even just the other students felt that way is, is is a really important thing to be doing. So it’s not always about just marketing your school, in the, in the course of supporting students in their academic journey through storytelling through helping them relate to others like them. I think you are marketing your school because you’re creating it, you’re creating an experience, you know, where where people feel seen and heard and understood. So yeah, it’s so you know, those are I think we often default to like, who can I get on camera that’s going to say the right things that are going to get people in the door to the school. But storytelling is so much more broad than that, and so many opportunities to tell stories of what’s going on day to day? And, and and how are you supporting students that are already in the school to

Shiro Hatori
gotcha in this, you’re kind of already answering this question. But specific to this period in the enrollment cycle right now, right? There’s a lot of students who have been admitted or are maybe still applying, but we have, you know, a little over half a year till fall shows up and students show up on class. Are there specific types of student content, student testimonials that you focus in on during this period? I mean, your example with the Student Resources is probably one, but or do you see specific types of content that your customers come back to you and say, Hey, like, that was really good, us specific pain point or solution that we showed or something along those lines?

John Azoni
Yeah, I don’t really have that that kind of data. In terms of like, specific times of the year when people are, my clients are deploying certain pieces of content, but I can say that you some of the top content, that that that students look for, are things like, student success stories would be would be there, but also like things like, what’s the food? Like? What’s the housing? Like? What’s the what’s the, what’s a, what’s a day in the life look like? Some of the content that I find really intriguing to study on YouTube is user generated content of students just making Day in the Life videos of what’s going on? Like, what you know, it’s gonna be like 1020 10 or 20 minute video of the student be like, here’s a day in the life at such and such, you know, business school, and they’re going to class and they’re, you know, opening their laptop and blah, blah, blah, and then they’re studying back at their dorm or whatever. And I’m always amazed that like, like, this is a long video and people are like, students are watching this all the way through it seems like and commenting about like, this was so great. This helped me see like, this answered so many questions I had about you know, about the school. So giving, you know what, one of the things that that we advocate for at unveiled is not just what are the stories you can bring in a video crew to film you know, but what are what are stories that that can that the students themselves can can tell to their own audiences that are going to help answer the questions or calm some of the fears that people might it’d be having in this in this period of, you know, in this period of time where there, they haven’t maybe officially shown up to the school yet, you know, there’s there’s still an opportunity for them to, you know, go elsewhere. So I think it’s, I think it’s, there’s, there’s a lot opportunities to talk about some of the smaller things. What’s the experience gonna be like, you know, is a big one, I think.

Shiro Hatori
That’s great. Yeah, user generated content, day in the life of like, those are all things I’m hearing from other people who work in your space, too. So that’s great. This actually reminds me of a video I like randomly watched like, years ago, about the commute from like, a suburb of Seattle across the, I think the was it the 405 Bridge, I forget which bridge it was, but it’s like the north bridge that you can take into Seattle, and someone just recorded like a 30 minute dash cam video with no edits, and it had like, hundreds of 1000s of views. And really, how does this video so many views? And yeah, not like the guy had a bunch of other videos, it was like, he had a few dash cam videos. And this one really, like, you know, popped off and went viral. And it just makes me think like, people just wanted to experience like, maybe they’re moving. They’re like, they were looking to house in a neighborhood. They wanted to remember what the commute was like, but yeah, that’s interesting.

John Azoni
I think it’s such a Yeah, and it’s surprising, but it’s also not surprising when you know, when you if some if you have a hot question on your mind about, you know, what’s something like, like, what’s the commute, like, you know, for instance, and you have someone that’s just like, This is literally what the commutes like, you know, right. It’s not like a poppy like ESPN sort of montage of the commute, it’s like, just check it out. And that’s why that’s it’s such a great example. And I’m glad you mentioned that about video length. And I hear, I don’t think I don’t think there’s a video that I have produced, where it wasn’t mentioned in the pre production about how this needs to be short. You know, because people’s attention spans are so, so short. It’s always, always always part of the equation and very top of mind for marketing teams, it’s like, it’s like, the first consideration is we need to make this short, otherwise, no one’s gonna care. But it’s sort of like, well, let’s make sure we create something for the right people that are going to care, you know, and then let them make the decision where they want to drop off. You know, but it’s sort of like, if you’re, if all you’re doing is making decisions based on you can, you can make a really boring 32nd video is what I’m trying to say, you know, that that equally, as many people don’t watch as like a 30 minute video, that’s, that’s really, that’s really resonating with people for the right reasons, because you’ve, you’ve given them something that is, that is resolving something in their brain, you know, like, something as simple as that.

Shiro Hatori
Yeah, like that, it kind of reminds me that, like, sometimes I have a hypothesis, okay, this, this podcast clip is gonna do really well. And then, you know, it tanks. And then the episode that I thought was not going to do well is, is going viral. And, and sometimes, you know, as a content creator, I feel like you have to just test a lot of formats, different links, you know, different like video creative topics, where, like we’ve mentioned, and sometimes you can’t just always feel like you have a gauge on everything that’s going to perform well or not well, because a lot of it, the market has to test and you have to be the proponent to test all these different formats and everything we just mentioned.

John Azoni
Yeah, and I think and part of that, that storytelling structure, that old, normal turning point, new normal, that I mentioned, that I the way that we think about it at unveiled is a little more complicated. But just in the way that I teach it, it’s it’s a very simple structure, but like having a good hook is so important. It’s not something that this is something that’s in that little three part structure, but but it is very important to hook your audience with, with something that says this is made this was made for me, this was this is something that I know I’m going to relate to, and resonate with. And a good hook is typically not like, my name is so and so. And I’m the president of such and such college, you know, really a good hook should say it should answer the question like, What is this video about? What am I going to learn? What’s the value I’m going to get from this from this story? Or, or in the case of like, you know, maybe it’s a story story, you know, alumni success story or something, some sort of soundbite that isn’t just my name. Ms. Blank and I graduated from blank, it’s it’s maybe a soundbite that that really kind of draws people in to like, kind of gives them a sense of what what this this video is about. We did. We did a video for one of our clients is a business school Walsh College here in Michigan and one of the student testimonials, or it was alumni testimonial that we did was about a guy that was fired from his job. And then ended up sort of upskilling got his degree from Walsh ended up graduating there and then becoming like the president of the, the his competing company, that he got hired away, which is like, just an amazing, that’s an amazing example of like a from two kind of kind of story. But the very first line we had was like, I can’t remember exactly what he said, but something like, I never thought that I would lose my job. You know, and right there. It’s sort of like, oh, what why did he lose his job? What happened? You know, what, then what? How did it end up? You know, you’re sort of opening, opening, like a story gap, like a gap that people feel compelled to close in their mind? Absolutely. Yeah. So some of that’s important, too.

Shiro Hatori
That’s great. Well, I like the example with the Walsh case study, because actually read a little bit about this. And I know you work with them as a client, and you help build content for them. But they actually did a good job of taking some of your content and reusing it and repurposing a lot of it so that, you know, they could create different formats and different types of video content from it. I think it’s, I’m very guilty of this as well as is like, what can I do that’s new, what can I do that’s new, and I’m trying to think about, you know, all the other past episodes I’ve recorded and organizing them and using bits and little bytes from each episode, even if it’s a year old, to see how I can repurpose it and provide value to the community today. And so I know you’re doing a little bit of that and suggesting some of that with your podcasts and your clients? And can you tell us a little bit more about how you’re accomplishing that or seeing that being accomplished? Yeah,

John Azoni
I mean, I think that I really believe in what I saw in cars, I worked for a previous production company, I’ve been doing this probably coming up on 15 years now. And I think a big pattern that I see is people, organizations of all kinds, not just higher ed, just any, you know, organization, approaching video as like a one off project and then letting it sit on the hard drive. Like when you hire a video vendor or you shoot it internally, or whatever it is. It’s not just the video, that’s, that’s valuable. It’s not just the end result video. But all those ingredients that went into that video can be used to create other videos. And I don’t think that enough organizations really have that as part of their strategy. But Walsh college, my friend, Jay Krueger, he’s the director of creative marketing over there. And actually, when, when unveiled was just starting, I had gotten connected to Jay through mutual contacts. And we got on the phone. And, you know, when I was kind of trying to figure out like, you know how to structure like our video offerings. I talked to a bunch of marketing directors at colleges, Jay was one of them. And he was like, he was like, you know, what you should not just do like, because at the time, the idea was monthly student or alumni testimonials, and it was just one video and that was that he’s like, but you should, you should like, give them all this other stuff too. Like, like, there’s so much there’s so much opportunity within just that one story, you know, to help schools have like, all kinds of other stuff that they can deploy in their in their social media. So like a lot of what our subscription model is today is because of that conversation with with Jay and he is just a just a serial repurpose, er and I’ve learned so much from him. So we we did last year, we did a commercial. They had sort of done a rebrand. So we did a commercial that came out of that and then these two alumni two, one was a student one was an alumni story. So the alumni story being the one I mentioned of the guy that got fired. Another guy was that we were told his name was a shock and his his story was like he got like 10s of 1000s of dollars stolen from from him and then he got real mad and then went into data security. And so Now now, that’s what he does, he does data security for a company. But just it was a two day shoot. Very, you know, very, very, you know, kind of simple approach, not not like a really long, like, lot of lot, a lot of shooting, but a two day shoot, and they long story short, you know, they Jay had enough content, B roll content and interview content to make so much more content out of out of that for years to come. He’s on his we did one commercial for him, that he paid us for. And then now he’s on his 10th Free commercial. He’s taken all this content and just continually rewrote the script, and use this in different ways. And, and put out 10 additional, like commercials that have been on TV and stuff that that we had nothing to do with. And I see that and I’m like, I love that, like, you know, I have a vested interest in them continuing to hire us. But I actually really love seeing, you know, seeing organizations repurposing stuff like that, and really getting the most out of one investment in video, because I think that’s, that’s how it should be. And then not only that, but they they’ve taken the footage that we made, and they use it for still images. So they, they create a lot of their paid ads, like banner, you know, still image ads, or whatever are from this B roll that we shot, and they’ll just drop it in Canva, put some text over it, whatever. So it’s, it’s been really fun to watch how their content has really transformed because even before we started working together, it had been years before they since they had done a last commercial. And so they had they really had sort of started dipping into a lot of stock imagery, and like just a lot of stuff that just didn’t feel authentic to them. So, so it’s just a good example of how like one investment in video can really fuel your content for a year, two years, three years, however much you decide to continue to repurpose that if you have a good strategy in mind for for how to keep using that stuff.

Shiro Hatori
That’s fantastic. And I wasn’t even thinking about the still image is still image repurpose as well. I’m sure everything’s filmed and super high definition. And all you need the definition to fit is a phone now. So

John Azoni
Right.

Shiro Hatori
Like, yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s interesting. Yeah, using the still images from the video for whatever purposes you want, that’s great. It’s a really good,

John Azoni
I will say, what when we filmed the commercial, this didn’t this stuff didn’t really make it into the commercial. But we did a whole scene of just portrait shots, like, you know, there’s their student and alumni and stuff, just kind of smiling in the camera kind of given us the sort of fortune 500 sort of CEO pose or whatever. But like a lot of those people ended up using that as their headshots, you know, because we gave, we gave the individuals their footage, and those became a lot of people’s headshots like, you know, LinkedIn or whatever.

Shiro Hatori
Right?

John Azoni
Certainly video is not, it’s not a replacement for a photographer. Because when you take a moving image and you stop the image, there’s going to be, you have to stop it at just the right frame to get a crisp image because there’s motion blur in play with a with a video, but in a pinch, I would say, you know, 60% of the still images that I use come from the videos that we make.

Shiro Hatori
That’s great. Yeah, that’s such a good repurpose that I didn’t even think about that’s awesome. And I another thought I had is I’m guilty again of this. But like when you run the same ads, as someone, you know, that’s paying for them. If you see them, you know, a few times you’re like, Oh, this is outdated, you know, we can’t use this anymore. But from a student or student perspective, a prospective student perspective, they’re maybe seeing it only a few times in their lifecycle, they probably hopefully won’t see it, you know, when they’re a sophomore, because it was an ad targeted to them as a prospective student or a freshman. And so like, you know, maybe the frequency at which you think you’re seeing it as someone who works in the staff or marketing comms team is actually a lot lower for your audience to and so there’s probably a big opportunity to use content for, you know, several years, just based on what you were saying.

John Azoni
Yeah, one of the earlier episodes of of my podcast, we had a guest on there, his name is Justin Simon. And Justin is a great follow on LinkedIn. His whole business is about helping organizations repurpose content and he’s got this like content repurposing roadmap that you can download and super good. But that was a great episode because like one of the things that he really drove the points that he drove home was like, if you think your audience has seen something like 100 times, and they’re sick of it, they’re probably just starting to see it. Like your content is so much more of a blip on the radar in other people’s minds than you think it is. So don’t be afraid to repurpose content, and sit and and come at your audience with with a similar point of view every time that you think they might be sick of hearing, but they might just be hearing it for the first time.

Shiro Hatori
That’s awesome. Well, I think we’ll kind of wrap things up there. That’s a great point to make. I’m wondering, John, where can our listeners follow up with you or any of the things you’ve got going on?

John Azoni
Yeah, we’d love for people to check out the podcasts called Higher Ed storytelling University, wherever you get your your podcasts, you can follow me on LinkedIn. And my last name is spelled ASIO. And I if you’re searching for me, and then I have a monthly or I’m sorry, a weekly newsletter that I send out, that kind of goes deeper into some of the things we talked about on the podcast, but also, you know, talks about other content marketing, inspiration and insights, and you can sign up for that at unveiled.tv/newsletter unveiled is spelled U and V i l. D.

Shiro Hatori
Awesome, go sign up for the newsletter, everyone. Great. Well, thank you, John. Thanks so much for joining the show today. It was awesome having you I love any topic around content marketing. So this was definitely something I really liked. So I appreciate you for joining.

John Azoni
Yes, a lot of fun. Thanks for having me.

Shiro Hatori
All right. Thanks, everyone. Please catch us on the next episode of The Harriette demanded podcast. Thank you. All right. Stopping it now. Cool. That was great.

John Azoni
Yeah, I think that was that was an interest

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