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Shiro Hatori
Welcome to the higher ed dimension podcast hosted by concept 3d. If you like our content, please follow or subscribe to us on Spotify, Apple, and Google. And if you’re on Apple, please drop us a comment. My name is Shiro Hatori. And I will be your host today. And today I’m really excited to talk about the sweet harmony of when strategic branding meets strategic planning. And I have an amazing guest to talk about this today. We have Anne Peters joining us she is the Associate Vice President of University Marketing and special projects at the University of Texas at San Antonio, which we’ll be referring to sometimes as UTSA, as well. And welcome to the show, Ian.

Anne Peters
Thank you, Shiro I’m really excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Shiro Hatori
It’s great to have you as well. And it’s great to meet you in person two weeks ago at ama as well and actually sit in on this presentation you gave.

Anne Peters
I was so glad you were able to attend. And it was such a pleasure to meet you in person after having listened to your podcast. And I’m no big fan. So thank you. Thanks again for for the invite. Appreciate

Shiro Hatori
it. And as you have made listen to some episodes, I to ask all my guests. What do you love about higher ed?

Anne Peters
So that’s an easy question Shiro because I’ve been in higher ed, communications and marketing for my whole career, essentially. And I wouldn’t have stayed as long as I did. If it wasn’t, I think the best field to work in. So as a marketing professional, I believe deeply that you have to be marketing, something that you are really passionate about in order to do your job well. And in order to find pleasure in your work. And I just believe so passionately and deeply in the power of higher education, to see the way that it transforms lives. And I really feel like higher ed is is doing heroes work out there, right? We’re transforming lives and enabling people to, to get to a better place in in their lives. And so it’s a noble enterprise. So I feel really good about marketing, higher ed, as a professional, but then also just on a personal level, working on college campuses is really fun. It’s just fun. You know, they’re great environments. You step outside your office, and you see the students and you see the activity on campus. It’s a great reminder of why we do what we do every day. So my my fun little anecdote is my office is located just down the hall from the Department of Physics at UTSA. And so I have the pleasure of seeing physics students in my hallway doing experiments, rolling balls and plays. And it’s really fun. So just about every week, I can go out and see students in action. And that’s that’s the joy of working in higher ed for sure.

Shiro Hatori
That’s fantastic students and action. I like it. It going a little bit more into our topics here today. Can you tell us a little bit more about your role? at UTSA? Sure.

Anne Peters
So I’ve been at UTSA for going on 14 years now, which is a long, long time. But I’ve been in different roles over time. And before I came to UTSA, I have worked for a variety of institutions. I’ve worked for small private colleges, I’ve worked for large public universities, I’ve worked for a university that is a public university masquerading as a private university, as I like to say. And now I’m at UTSA, which is a large Hispanic serving, urban serving university in the heart of San Antonio. We are San Antonio’s University. And I started in in different communications roles. They’re based in units at UTSA. And then moved into the president’s office to presidential communications for a period of time, then had the opportunity to take on the University Marketing team and special projects teams. So I have the joy of overseeing our institutional marketing and branding, development, as well as website development for the institution as a whole, as well as special projects, which is kind of a catch all for special events, high level university events that need a lot of TLC and have have high visibility. So it’s a real wonderful kind of portfolio that I have. It’s a little unique, I think in terms of the mix and it’s It’s been just such a pleasure to get to develop those aspects of, of UTSA over the last several years, that’s

Shiro Hatori
fantastic actually didn’t know about the special projects. And I thought that entailed the strategic planning that you do. But what are some examples of events that you’ve worked on? Yeah,

Anne Peters
absolutely. So that’s a real fun aspect of my job. We do things, everything from groundbreakings of new buildings and grand openings of new buildings to major events that commemorate University milestones, university Excellence Awards. We do events that are, you know, anniversary celebrations. For the University, we do all sorts of things. And if there are kind of considered presidential level, or high level events, that’s where my team gets involved. We also run all of our VIP football hospitality for our games, which is a whole different realm. In terms of that’s where we get into the community engagement in the the government official, elected official engagement, as well as donor engagement side of things. So it’s real interesting. Again, yeah, real interesting mix.

Shiro Hatori
That that probably keeps you busy and makes the job pretty fun, because you’re doing a lot of different things.

Anne Peters
It is, it’s super fun. It’s super fun. I never envisioned myself, you know, down on down on a football field at university kind of running VIPs around and yeah, folks that way, but but here I am, you know, our careers take it’s interesting places.

Shiro Hatori
That’s great. That’s new, new. That’s new news to me. Do you work with like alumni engagement or alumni teams with that? Yeah, University Advancement? Yes,

Anne Peters
we partner very closely with our advancement, and alumni engagement team. So we are, we are being decentralized University, we have right around 34,000 35,000 students. So like a lot of universities our size, size, we’ve got, you know, teams all across campus doing different flavors of marketing communications. And so I kind of oversee the central team, that setting the standards, brand standards, and providing the resources and kind of the strategy around our institutional marketing as a whole. And then we partner very closely with strategic enrollment, of course, on our enrollment marketing side of the house, but we have a whole separate team that does that. And then I partner very closely with the folks in the president’s office that do strategic planning and presidential then, and then our advancement and alumni team on on a variety of events and programs that kind of have a crossover between donors and other types of VIPs.

Shiro Hatori
So one of the conversations I have often on the podcast is around how the different silos of marketing and marketing affiliated teams need to be better connected and communicate more often. And it sounds like you are actually the physical embodiment of someone who’s responsible. And I didn’t tie these dots last time, but that’s what I’m hearing. That’s great.

Anne Peters
Yeah, no, I think that’s a good way of putting it Shiro. And that’s kind of in my legacy in a way UTSA is I’m a little bit of a Silo Buster and a cult, you know, huge, huge collaborator and team builder, that’s been my MO from the beginning. So you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a good fight to try and constantly tear down that territorialism and remind ourselves that we’re all we’re all one university, and we’re all trying to ultimately reach the same goal. So let’s all work together and share resources and share people and so we have all sorts of cross collaborative teams at UTSA that, that get together regularly. And so we you know, I kind of see my, my central role as the, I don’t know, the conductor, perhaps of sorts, you know, give everybody the guideposts and, and the resources and, and empower them to go do their jobs. Well, and it’s worked out. It’s worked out pretty well.

Shiro Hatori
Gotcha. I thought of a new hook for this episode, which is why every large state university needs in an Peters. It’s a common thread I hear. Great. Well, let’s let’s let’s jump into the topic here. today. I know that you were part of a panel that presented at ama symposium in Chicago just two weeks ago, which probably be around six weeks when this gets posted. And your presentation topic was on sweet harmony when strategic branding meets strategic planning. Can you tell us a little bit more more about why you decided to present this topic why you thought there was a need for it and then go into some of the key takeaways as well.

Anne Peters
Absolutely. So I want to give a shout out first and foremost to my co presenters at that session, it was a very well attended session, we were so delighted with the strong turnout, we really weren’t sure if the topic was going to be of interest, it’s a little different. And we, as we were putting it together, we kept saying to ourselves, gosh, we’ve never really seen anyone present exactly on this topic before, or seeing the show up at any conferences, feels like it might be a little little unique to be examining the intersection between strategic planning and strategic branding in this way. In my experience in in paths and paths, institutions, I’ve worked for the folks doing strategic planning, and the folks doing marketing communications weren’t always connecting with each other. That wasn’t they weren’t. They weren’t meeting regularly, they weren’t finding intersections in their work. And that’s been very different at UTSA UTSA, we have managed to find that very close collaboration. So Lisa, just sinskey was one of my co presenters. She is my colleague here at UTSA. That oversees UTSA strategic planning process. And then grant Drew was our other co presenter, and he is with ADV research, which is the marketing research firm that we use at UTSA to do our regular perception studies, and brand impact studies. So that we have a regular research cycle that we use, so we can measure trend lines over time around how our audiences feel about us what their opinions are of us. So grant, Lisa, and I put this presentation together, and just had a great time doing it. Because we were we every time we met, it was like, you know, an hour’s worth of amazing discussion. And then we kind of go Oh, yeah, and then we need a PowerPoint slide for that, too. So it was a lot of fun. So the kind of the impetus for putting this together was that UTSA recently went through a strategic planning refresh process. So when President arrived, about five years ago, five, six years ago, one of the first things he did, as many new presidents do is put together a strategic plan for the institution. And the plan was intended to last about 10 years, we are about halfway, a little little over halfway. Now through that plan. And because our president is such a, an amazing visionary, and leader, and has really taken us on this fantastic trajectory, we managed to check off a lot of those items that were on our strategic plan in the first five years. So in his wisdom, he said, you know, it is time for a fresh look at our strategic plan, not necessarily to change our direction or make any major changes, but just to kind of look at what have we accomplished? What’s left? And are there things we may want to add to the plate now that we’ve accomplished so much. So Lisa, came on board at UTSA, right around the time that this refresh process was starting. So she led that process. And she and I were very close collaborators throughout the whole thing she shouldn’t she was hired, you know, I call her up probably on day two and said, you and I need to be besties. I want to be besties with you. And here’s why. I’ve always felt that in over my whole career that there needed to be a closer connection between strategic planning, and marketing and branding, because in many ways, marketing is the public expression of your institution strategy, right? That’s a line that that my colleagues, grant us a lot and used in our presentation. That marketing is the public expression of strategy. And I thought that was so brilliant, because that really says it all. You know, we can’t do our jobs as marketers, well, unless we are furthering the institution’s strategic priorities. But the problem is a lot of times the institution strategic priorities, and your audience’s priorities aren’t the same. Very different. So how do you resolve that? How do you bring those viewpoints to the table, the strategic planning table? How do you make the case that you know what we probably should pay attention to marketplace demands? When we are putting together our strategic plan? We should probably know where our audiences want to see us go not just where we want to go as an institution as the folks on the inside. And sometimes that can be tough case to make. Because there’s an academia there’s a little bit of an attitude of, we know what’s best. We know what’s best for our audiences. We just need to teach them what’s best or tell them what’s best. But as marketers we know But that doesn’t always fly, right? We have to, we have to pay attention to their audience’s needs and language and perceptions. So. So I said, you know, this strategic plan, planning refresh process is an excellent opportunity to bring some market data to the table, to bring that lens to the, to the process, and not to run it by any means, or not to lead necessarily the direction of our strategic plan, but to inform it so that our audiences are part of the plan and not just not just part of the, you know, the, the result, so to speak.

Shiro Hatori
That’s fantastic. That’s a great story and to the why, and it makes a lot more sense as well, for me now, in how did you actually go about doing this research and getting getting buy in for it as well to start because I’m assuming you needed a budget and a plan for this as well, and how is going to reflect at that high level of strategic planning for the institution.

Anne Peters
When I came into my role, or when I took on the University Marketing team, one of the first things I wanted to do is implement a regular research cycle. We hadn’t done that at UTSA. before. And I knew inherently that in order to measure ourselves and measure our success, we were going to need first a baseline of where we stood currently, among our key audiences, and then be able to measure that over time to see if we’re moving the dial. Are their perceptions of UTSA improving is awareness level improving our their understanding of us as an institution? Is that aligning with our brand and our strategic priorities? Or are they do they think of us in contexts completely separate, right, from how we think of ourselves as an institution? What danger zones do we need to be aware of? Where are our perceptions not strong or not positive? All these things that research can tell you, right? So basically, it was a budget prioritization process. For me, I came in, I looked at the budget I had to work with and I took a big old earmark, and said, This will be for research. And I will make this for research every year. That’s that important to me. And so at UTSA, we do two major studies a year and then sometimes we sprinkle in a couple of smaller ones, depending on what’s going on what we need to know. But the two biggies we do every year, we do a perception study of our San Antonio market. And these are just the general community, right. So it’s not prospective students. It’s not parents or prospective students necessarily. It’s just general community members. And then we do a second study that’s similar, but in key Texas markets. So for us, that’s Austin, Houston, Dallas, and the Rio Grande Valley. And we’ve been doing that now, I think we’re going to be on our third year, this fall. And so it’s been really great, because even between year one and year two, we got to see some dial moving. You know, as far as showing your own successes and accountability, as a professional, that’s of course marvelous, too, because you can bring that to leadership and say, right, you know, perceptions have changed over time. And we have the data to prove it.

Shiro Hatori
That’s fantastic. And do you mind sharing some examples of what you found? And how you you changed or shifted some of your messaging based on learnings as well? Yeah,

Anne Peters
absolutely. So probably not surprisingly, I mean, we the survey is that we use is fairly extensive. And we look at a lot of different areas. But in terms of the strategic plan, intersection, you know, we most definitely want to know, you know, what were some of the most important characteristics of university that our audiences had, you know, what do they think a university should be doing? What do they think UTSA in particular, should be doing? And not surprisingly, you know, they’re, their highest priorities tend to be things that are very near and dear to their, to their hearts, right into their, into their personal experiences. So, career preparation, always tops the list, they want to be sure, you know, they think it’s important that students graduate prepared to walk into good careers and good jobs. Totally makes sense. Excellent. Teaching high quality teaching is another one that always tops the list. Affordability is often the third one that rounds out that list. And so you know, those things are things that then we take and say, Okay, these are things that we need to amplify around how you TSA is, you know, kind of our prowess in those areas, right? How our power making an impact in students lives, how we’re, how we’re preparing them for careers, how we’re ensuring that a TSA education is affordable. And talking about our faculty and their their teaching prowess. So, you know, it’s that’s just one example of learning that we that we, you know, received from those surveys. But what was interesting to me is those three things I just mentioned, career preparation, excellent teaching, and affordability. None of those were cornerstones of our strategic plan.

Shiro Hatori
Oh, interesting. Okay. And so

Anne Peters
yeah, and so that was, and they were they were in there. They were, they were, you know, aspects, but they weren’t necessarily called out as, you know, these are, these are our highest priorities, right. So the things that, you know, our internal stakeholders and leadership identified as kind of what makes UTSA distinct and important were things like, the fact that we were a Carnegie, our one had just achieved Carnegie, our one status in the Carnegie Classification of higher education institutions. The fact that we enable social mobility, social mobility being a big, you know, kind of buzzword in higher ed right now, the fact that over the last decade, we have successfully increased the number of degrees that we grant from UTSA, while reducing the time it takes students to get that degree, right, these are all important things. But these aren’t necessarily things that our audiences think about. First and foremost, they tend to think more about what’s in it for me, right, right.

Shiro Hatori
Oh, God, keep keep keep going.

Anne Peters
I was just gonna say so. So that was, you know, in terms of kind of this chasm might be a strong word, but for lack of a better word, there can be a little bit of a chasm, right between your leadership’s view of, of what you know, what the priorities should be, and again, the audience’s view. And sometimes the tension is very real, as I say, the tension is real. And so one of the things we talked a little bit about at the AMA session was how, you know, everything from priorities to audience to aspirations to language, everything, you know, we see a little differently as marketers than, say, our President or Provost. Right. So just to to a couple of examples that I’m sure will resonate with the audience. So, you know, our leadership tends to be very focused on on the perceptions of their fellow higher ed peers, right, and elected officials or board members. Whereas, you know, as marketers, we tend to be a little bit more focused on prospective students and their parents are the general public. And another observation I’ve made over time is, you know, I think our leadership and internal folks tend to focus a little bit more on the trajectory, right, like, look how far we’ve come over time, look at all these improvements we’ve made over time look at, you know, looking at look at, you know, this graph and this chart and see how far we’ve, you know, how things have gone straight up, which is wonderful. But again, for our audiences, they don’t tend to care so much where we’ve been, they just want to know where we are right now. Right? If I’m going to come to your institution, or if I’m gonna send my child to your institution, what’s their experience going to be today? I don’t care how different it is from five years ago, right? So there’s just some of these things that you kind of have to reconcile a little bit when you come to the strategic planning table and start to talk through, okay, what are the institutional priorities that we want to try and put out in the marketplace to really form our brand?

Shiro Hatori
That’s fantastic. And I kind of going back to my previous question around, like, how do you bring this to the table is one key thing that if I had to remember one word from your presentation is like research, right? is do your research, and bring that information of what the audience wants now, not what it was five years ago, bring that information to the table, so that you can have a meaningful discussion around like what how you can add to the strategic plan or what you can shift is if if I’m hearing things correctly,

Anne Peters
no, Shiro you got it. I mean, I think research is your friend always, when it when your higher ed marketer and I have found over time that, you know, I can talk until I’m blue in the face and stand up on my soapbox and say, This is important and our audiences care about, you know this, but until you show them the data, so to speak. A lot of times, it’s hard to get their attention around some of those things. and by they I mean, you know, leadership or internal stakeholders who are process. So I always bring data to the table whenever possible. And, you know, the joy again, one of the joys of working in academia is a lot of folks in leadership have research backgrounds. So they respond to that very quickly. And so that’s been, that’s been a key for sure. In the success of getting getting a place at the table, right, I can bring data that you don’t have right now, that’s not this conversation yet.

Shiro Hatori
That’s fantastic. And it kind of going back to the three points you found, I believe, which is excellent, looking for excellence, teaching, affordability. And sorry, the last one was career career. Career preparation. Yes. So after learning that, like, what are some of the things that you and your team at UTSA did to help communicate? How UTSA is supporting those efforts? Or how they’re able to provide a solution for that?

Anne Peters
Yeah. So I have a good story I can share on that, and perfect love stories. So you know, social mobility and career preparation are kind of adjacent, right, very similar concepts, but they’re a little different. And so, you know, one of the things I had been hearing from from our President and our leadership is, we really need to emphasize how UTSA is a leader in enabling social mobility on the part of our students, we have many a large population of first generation students, for example, at UTSA, and one of the things we’ve kind of made a signature, one of our students are aspects of our brand is that, you know, many, many, many of our students graduate and have a quality of life that’s much higher than their parents or grandparents did. Because we prepared them so well, right for a job. But, you know, this notion or this, this term, social mobility isn’t necessarily one that is just tossed around households, right. It’s not an everyday turn. And so, you know, at one point, we actually, because because this is such a big theme, and we had been getting all sorts of national rankings for, you know, for our ability to, to create social mobility for our for our graduates, that we actually, we actually made the mistake Shiro of putting that on a billboard at one point and saying UTSA, nationally ranked for social mobility. And after we did that, I got had a conversation with a colleague who said something along the lines of, Do people really know what social mobility means, like, people out there? And I said, Oh, yeah, he might be right. They might not know what it means, or they might not care. So when, when the opportunity came around to do our next research study, we actually just asked the question, and we dug into it a little bit, you know, here’s this notion of social mobility, what words would you use to describe what that means? What would resonate most with you? What phrases would resonate most with you? And lo and behold, not surprisingly, the phrase social mobility did not rate was not what people were interested in. And five phrases around things like higher higher quality of life, better, better life circumstances, and your parents or grandparents, those kinds of phrasing those kinds of phrases, really resonated much more. And so. So we change our language to that’s how we’ve started in the ad campaigns that we’re building and in the, in the brand collateral and materials that we’re developing. That’s the language we’re using now. And I think that’s one of the points we made at our ama presentation, and one that I believe in so much is, oh, you can’t get stuck in that rut of using academia. Because if you do, you’re not speaking their language quite literally. Right, right. And so doing the testing, and again, this was another great example Shiro. My leadership believes so passionately in the notion of social mobility, that it’s a little hard to convince them that not using those words, is a good idea. But I was able to bring that research to the table and say, look, what social mobility means that they do, they do respond to these other phrases. So that’s why we’re going to lead with these in our in our marketing, and that made the case.

Shiro Hatori
That’s fantastic. That’s a great story of, you know, trying to do the right thing by having to, you know, figure out with data, how you can really approach messaging and and meet your audience where they are. That’s great. I was curious about the r1 messaging. I actually had a very similar conversation With Tim Senft, who is at Cornell University College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, they’re also an r1. institution and get tons of grants for agricultural research. And this was a struggle for them as well, because they wanted to mark it, you know that to their prospective students. But if to a student, if you say we’re r1 research institution, that doesn’t really mean anything to them, right. And so, as a as the digital communications director at that cultural and life sciences, they found out they made their website, like a base of educating all the things that have come from Cornell and all the great research has come as a way to communicate that, like they do all this research. And I thought that was fascinating. But I don’t know if how you have interpreted how to tell your audience that as well. Yeah,

Anne Peters
that’s another that was a journey. And when that was so UTSA, received Kearney r1 status in January 2022. This was the culmination of a long term goal that had been many folks at the university had worked on for many years. It was definitely a centerpiece of our strategic plan, up until that point, that that was one of our main goals. And so to achieve this was a big deal. It was a deal internally. And as you mentioned, though, Shiro unfortunately, people on the outside, so to speak outside of academia, they have no idea what that means. They don’t know what the Carnegie Classification of higher higher education institutions is all about. They certainly don’t know what initials like R one R two, you know, all the all the correct we use in there, right? Yes, meaningless to them. Again, you know, our audiences are looking at it in terms of what’s in it for me, not, you know, how great you are as an institution. So, you know, not surprisingly, when we were, you know, kind of fairly certain late in 2021, when we kind of got all the feelers in the indicators that yes, we were gonna get it and get ready. You know, I was, of course getting requests and and, and we’ve had many conversations from with our leadership around, how are we going to market this? How are we going to let everybody know, we need to tell the world, right? Yeah, absolutely. To tell the world which is one of my favorite things that I love to say, if I had a dime, every time someone said, We need to tell the world, if only the world knew then that they would be you know, so impressed with us. They’d all come in droves. But unfortunately, as marketers, we know, we can’t afford to tell the world our news, right. And we need to be a little more strategic about narrowing down our audiences. So that was the first thing I did was kind of say, This is amazing, wonderful news. But we can’t necessarily tell the world nor will the world care, because there are a lot of Arwen institutions out there. They’re about 140 others besides us. So how can we make the most impact with our marketing dollars to elevate this news in a way that’s going to be meaningful for the audience? And figure out who that audience is to start? Like, who do we really want to know this? First and foremost, so, you know, we identified some audiences and some B’s, of course, were our alumni, we wanted to be sure, they knew that the value of their degree just went up a few notches, certainly prospective students, we wanted San Antonio to be proud of us. We wanted the General San Antonio community, whether or not they have any relationship to UTSA, to be proud of their hometown University and feel like it’s helping to elevate the city as a whole, right? It’s not just about us, it’s about all of San Antonio, because we are San Antonio is university. So so once we did some of that audience definition, then the next part of the exercise was, okay, let’s look at each of these groups and talk through and talk to them and find out what about this r1 status is meaningful to you, if we take the time to explain it to you and kind of dig in a little bit? What aspects of this are going to be important to you? And that’s where we develop all of our messaging, right? So not surprisingly, along this theme of you know, what’s in it for me, we really couch all of our messaging in terms of here’s what you prospective student, you alum, you elected official, here’s why you should care about UTSA is r1 status, and here’s what it means. So, you know, it was things about you know, the value of your degree going up becoming more you know, having more opportunities to go to graduate school, having more federal have more funding come in to do to do research, and again, all these messages we’re taking Willard according to, you know, the audience and what they would care about. And so we developed a whole bunch of collateral around this. For the General San Antonio population, our advertising campaign really revolved around this notion of UTSA is San Antonio is tier one university. And we and tier one was a was a wording that we use based on a whole other little research project, which I won’t go into now. But we had some degree of confidence that that wording would would resonate, and kind of talk about the prestige, it really brought to the city. So yeah, again, it was a it was an exercise in kind of taking what the institutional priority and leadership desire is translating it for your audience in a way that will be meaningful to them. That’s great.

Shiro Hatori
I love how you broke down more of an abstract, I don’t want to say abstract completely entirely, but more of an abstract ask, broke it down into strategic parts into a plan that was realistic, but and also would drive the most impact. That’s, that’s fantastic. That’s a good, that’s a good marketing practice, in general, that’s awesome. I think if we took that last five minutes, created a piece of content from it from any school expecting to reach r1 status anytime soon, their marketing director or a VP will have a lot less work to do.

Anne Peters
Well, and I’m happy to talk to any institution that’s on the cusp of that. So their Carnegie Classification System is going to be changing a little bit next year. And so the prediction is that there will be more institutions who achieve our one status under the new guidelines that are coming out. And so I imagine there’s gonna be quite a few institutions that are going to find themselves in this same position. And so I would be happy to consult with with any of them. So when it comes time to share my contact information, please, I’ll just put out a blanket extension to anyone who would like to contact me to talk about that I’d be happy to

Shiro Hatori
You read my mind, because we are just about at time and I was about to ask you, you know, where audience and listeners can reach out to you and to learn more about what you’re up to and the good work you’re doing at UTSA?

Anne Peters
Absolutely. So probably the easiest place to get in touch with me is through LinkedIn. I’m very responsive to LinkedIn messages. On LinkedIn, I actually use my my maiden name, my middle name, because Anne Peters is a very common name. So it’s an n n e. Conaway Peters. So c o n e w a y Peters. And I think I’m the only and Conway Peters in there. So if you type that in, you’ll find me. And I would love to start up a conversation.

Shiro Hatori
Well, thank you so much. It was really great to meet you in person and also record this podcast today. And yeah, thank you so much for joining.

Anne Peters
Thank you, Shiro thank you for doing this podcast. It’s a real resource.

Shiro Hatori
Thank you so much, and

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