Higher Ed Demand Gen Podcast

Terrill’s LinkedIn

Shiro Hatori
All right. Hello, everyone. Oh, one second. I’m going to stop this one. Oh, okay, here we go. It’s been doing this weird thing when it says it’s not recording recognizing my camera, so I’ll start again. Okay. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the higher demand gen podcast hosted by concept 3d. My name is Shiro and I will be your host today. And today we will cover another episode of our accessibility mini series. And we will be talking about how to influence change through community. And for our guest speaker, I’m really really excited. We have Terrell Thompson. He’s currently serving as the manager of it, of the IT accessibility team at the University of Washington. Welcome to the podcast row.

Terrill Thompson
Thanks Shiro. It’s good to be here.

Shiro Hatori
Great. And I do love asking this one icebreaker for all of our guests here. What do you love about higher ed?

Terrill Thompson
Well, you know, I’ve always loved I read you as a student, I think I

Terrill Thompson
have always wanted to stay in that environment, I never really wanted to graduate. And when I did, then, you know, I pretty quickly. It’s been a few years outside of higher ed but always wanted to get back. I’ve always lived in college towns. And I’ve always loved just being part of the exciting things that happen, particularly in a research university where they’re they’re doing just a lot, a lot of research, you know, the landscaping, the architecture, the athletics, it all sort of contributes to this vibrant culture that I just really enjoy being part of.

Shiro Hatori
Love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. And, Darryl, could you tell us a little bit about, you know, your background, what you’re doing now, some of your roles, and your goal is your department?

Terrill Thompson
Yeah, well, I’m at the University of Washington, and I’ve been here for over 20 years now. In the central IT organization, we have a department called Accessible Technology Services. And the part of that that I am most involved with is specifically working with the University of Washington. And there it which encompasses everything, everything digital with user interface, software, websites, web applications, digital documents, videos, any anything that has a user interface, has the potential to either break down barriers or create barriers for certain groups of users. And so our team is responsible for trying to get the university to ensure that all of its technology is accessible. So that obviously, as a, as a large ask for a small team, five people that I supervise, plus a few part timers, and some students, and we’re talking about hundreds of 1000s of you know, digital accessibility asset or digital assets that need to be accessible. So mostly we spend our time consulting and doing trainings and developing resources, and providing support. And generally just trying to build community around accessibility and getting people to understand the idea that if they create something, or they purchase something, they deploy something and make it available for users, they are responsible for ensuring that success is accessible. And so, you know, we’re, we’re here to help, and we’re glad to be a resource. And you know, we’d love to help in any way that we can. But ultimately, they own the accessibility of whatever technology they’re responsible for. And so so that’s where, you know, creating culture really is essential. And just kind of empowering the existing infrastructure to support accessibility.

Shiro Hatori
Love to hear and I know how, how long have you been, you know, building this community around accessibility, this community and culture?

Terrill Thompson
Why I started the U DUB in 2001. So again, it’s been just over over 20 years. And prior to that, I was at North Carolina State University doing the same thing. And, and also working nationally. And so a lot of us who are in this space, you know, for many institutions, it’s just a one person shop, you know, one person who’s responsible for, you know, technology accessibility, and they can’t do it alone. And so, so the community, it can be defined in a lot of different ways. But you’re working, working nationally or even globally, through organizations like Athan, the access technology, Higher Education Network, or edge because the Association for higher education technology, high Ed Webb, you know, all of these organizations play a key role in sort of building community independently of particular institutions, but then you know, within In our institution, you know, community is important as well. And so, so definitely, you know, we’re at the, you know, ever since I started and you know, on day one, it was all about, you know, building community around accessibility and getting people to own and buy and the need for accessibility.

Shiro Hatori
I love it. Thanks so much. And I know, there were two key elements that you created when you start at U DUB. And that’s around building groups within the internal community within your job, can you tell us a little bit more about what you’ve accomplished there?

Terrill Thompson
Yeah, one of the things I talk about a lot, because it’s so easy to replicate. And that is a mailman list we just created. And I actually don’t get credit for this, it happened before I arrived. But there was somebody the the webmaster there, their actual working title was webmaster, but somebody within the central IT organization who created websites, had an interest in accessibility. And there were other people across campus who were developing websites and had an interest in accessibility. And so so that person created a an email discussion list using mailman, and and then created, you know, this, this initial seed for our community to develop around accessibility. And more and more people signed on to that. I’ve kind of lost track of how many people are on that list today, but it still exists. And I think they’re well over 200. You know, mostly web, web designers, developers, people who were involved in some way and websites at the U DUB. And then what started as a as a mailman was just people asking questions, you know, I’ve got this, this design that I’m working on, and I’m curious what you all think of its accessibility, can you have a look at it and provide each other with feedback, that evolved into a meeting once a month over lunch to talk about web accessibility stuff. And that, that evolved into having guest speakers and it just became kind of more and more more formal. What we do today, within that community is have still a monthly, monthly meetup, we call it the monthly web accessibility and usability meetup. But it is for for people to bring their, their challenging, maybe maybe even not so challenging, but you know, bring something they’re working on and share it with others, and others can have some an opportunity to provide some feedback on the accessibility or the usability. You know, and, and usually, you know, there’s an opportunity there for everybody there, there usually are some newcomers that don’t know anything about accessibility, they’re just getting started. And so you know, it’s a friendly setting to learn. But there are also people who have been doing this for years, and they really have developed some pretty good accessibility skills. But they’re working on this really challenging design. And they, you know, it’s not obvious how do I make this accessible, there are no sort of standards for this particular thing that I’m creating. And it’s an opportunity to get input from the community, you know, on some possible approaches. So do we actually have this meeting tomorrow or Thursday, this week, and I’m really excited, we got a couple of really good designs that are going to be, you know, bringing or individuals that are bringing their their interesting challenges to that meeting. And so I’m always looking forward to this one of my favorite things that we do every month.

Shiro Hatori
That’s awesome. And what’s the group consists of mostly, is it web developers and, you know, similar, like web management positions, or is it kind of a gambit of different titles and responsibilities.

Terrill Thompson
It’s quite a quite a variety. The, the people that come consistently, I think, are mostly sort of in the web design, web development, UX, we’re old. And so but but it does, you know, there’s a pretty broad mix, and it actually attracts some outsiders too. We, we are open to outsiders coming we have people come from other universities. And we have some of the vendors that we have collaborated with, because it’s a big part of what we do is work with the vendors with whom we do business to help them be more accessible. And a lot of our vendors have really come to value that relationship and they to, you know, are active participants and in this meetup. So it’s it’s really interesting to tap into all the different perspectives, great place to get get, you know, challenges solved or, you know, creative ideas circulating.

Shiro Hatori
That’s fantastic. I actually just had a conversation on this very topic and mentioned your name that this is something that you’ve been doing, you know, over a decade or so, to someone who I’m hosting a webinar with, about creating a row roadmap to digital accessibility. And she’s just starting to build this group and liaison with within her school to kind of build the same community that you’ve also created at U DUB. So that’s, that’s amazing. Second point of this was, I know a little more specific, I know you were talking about an introduction call, you created an IT specific accessibility Liaison Group as well, can you tell us a little bit more about that, and maybe how it’s also different from the first dedicated group you created, or that you you have at U DUB?

Terrill Thompson
Yeah, that too, is a key piece of our community building efforts. And I’d say those, those two kind of go hand in hand, you know, one, one, the first one is critical, because it’s so easy to set up, you know, just an a mailman list, you know, and obviously, you need somebody to kind of see the discussion, maybe, and get that conversation happening. The other is important, because not just web accessibility, it’s more broad than that. I were specifically interested in technology accessibility. So it is still a little bit limited in that we’re just talking about technology. But But we, as a small department, in a very large, very decentralized University, we have always needed people out there in the trenches, to sort of help us bring the accessibility message to, you know, the two departments. And so, you know, over the years, we’ve identified kind of key allies, people that we’ve collaborated with people that have reached out to us. And we formed these relationships. And so a few years ago, we decided to kind of formalize that, and created the IT accessibility liaisons network. So it’s all those people out there in the trenches, who have emerged as having an interest in accessibility and being willing to sort of take on accessibility within their scope of influence, might not necessarily be part of their job description, you know, for some it is and for some, it has evolved to where it’s part of what they’re doing efficiently. But others, it’s just something they care about something they’re passionate about, and something they’re willing to put some time into learning more about, and then trying to pass that on and educate the people around them. So, so we’ve been doing this for for many years now, kind of the format at the moment is, once again, we have a mailman lists, so there is that where we can communicate with them, and they can communicate with each other. We also have three, half day, trainings, workshops, meetings, per year, and so we get together for half a day. And really, it’s, it’s a deep dive so beyond, you know, what we might cover in a typical, you know, one hour webinar or something like that, we can really dig more deeply into a particular topic of, of interest, that, and usually unit will, will reach out to them to find out what the timely topics are. And, you know, get them to weigh in on you know, what the agenda might be for the for the next meeting. But and then we also tap into that network to if we’re doing special projects, and you know, wanting to evaluate accessibility products are testing things of various things that day, you know, they can get involved with. And so that’s always our first stop, if we want to engage people and just, you know, tap into people are interested in accessibility to kind of help us out with with various things.

Shiro Hatori
That’s amazing. And so the second group is that audience like a little more broad than, and I know, you mentioned, the first group is mostly some sort of web related role, but is the second one more across departments and more varying titles, like you said, it could be not part of their job description, but also just something they’re interested in.

Terrill Thompson
Yeah, and it really is a wide variety. There’s some overlap that some of the same web designers and developers are part of the WWE guy science group. They’re also just a lot, far more than I could get even, you know, rattle off, but people in a lot of different roles, management roles, to, you know, sort of grassroots, you know, technical roles. And all across the university. Lots, not, I wouldn’t say every department is represented, but but a lot of a lot of academic departments, a lot of administrative units. The Med School is representation, you know, it’s a pretty good cross section of of the university that’s represented and it’s growing all the time. I can’t remember if I gave a number yet but over 150 I’ve lost track but somewhere 150 to 160 right now. members within that, that network.

Shiro Hatori
That’s amazing. So several 100 People it looks like between your two to dedicated groups. That’s, that’s, that’s a huge number. I’m wondering you know it with all these members, And so many constituents involved in being more responsible have has the bar been raised, like risen for the average person, average faculty, you know, in their knowledge of accessibility or digital accessibility. Because of the help of these things, I’d love to hear a little bit more about like, what the results have been like, for the institution.

Terrill Thompson
Yeah, yeah, that’s a good, that’s a good question. Does essentially, you know, when, I guess, paraphrasing, and maybe putting words in your mouth, but does, have we reached that point where it’s not cool to be inaccessible. And, you know, there’s kind of a bit of peer pressure, you know, that is sort of forcing people to consider accessibility, and I wouldn’t say we’ve reached that yet, you know, 150 employees out of several 1000 is still, you know, a pretty small number. But, but that is, that is really sort of what we’re shooting for that accessibility becomes the norm, rather than, you know, just just something extra that people do, because they have to. And so and that, really, it comes down to cultural change, you know, changing the culture. So it is a culture that embraces accessibility, at the level, where every time we create something, you know, we’re, we always take the steps necessary to make sure that it’s accessible, or procure, Yeah, same thing in procurement, that whenever we’re going to, you know, buy some software, we’re always going to check, you know, do the due diligence to make sure that we’re not going to be introducing barriers by, you know, my buying this and deploying it.

Shiro Hatori
Now, IP, I appreciate you putting that into plain words, right, like, you know, how are you measuring this? Are there some kind of, aside from just the sheer number of members you have, between the two groups? Are there some other kind of things you’ve noticed, in your, in your tenure there about some changes that have been made, or some small wins that you can grasp on?

Terrill Thompson
Well, I do feel like, we are making progress. I mean, they’re, you know, every day we encounter somebody who still hadn’t, hasn’t heard the message, you know, they’ve been at the University for as long as I have or longer, and they, they still, the accessibility is not on their radar yet. And so, but, but by and large, I would have to say, it feels like I don’t have objective data to measure this, you know, but it feels like we’re making progress, that, you know, when we talk to people about accessibility, it’s not deer in the headlights anymore. You know, and it’s not often it’s not, you know, new to them, it’s moving beyond new, and into very specific things, like I mentioned, with the meetup group, you know, often it’s, it’s a design pattern, that is only a challenge, because it hasn’t been done before. So the stuff that hasn’t been done before, and that’s common on websites, people have already figured out, you know, what’s the best practice for how to code this properly. So that, you know, is accessible and works for somebody who’s using assistive technology, or just using the keyboard or whatever, those design patterns are pretty well established. And so there’s already quite a bit of expertise there. But you know, it’s you’re thinking creatively about new and, you know, including accessibility and innovation, you know, where I feel like we are, you know, seeing that same progress, the accessibility comes up a lot more frequently, in those sorts of conversations. And, you know, going back to procurement, because that is a big part of what we do. Because, you know, we are, we are, you know, evolving into a university that buys first as opposed to builds first. And, therefore, accessibility needs to be, you know, included in the conversation when we’re buying something, and we’re more and more frequently invited to the table two, you know, to help review products or, you know, to, you know, just have that accessibility voice, you know, at the table when they’re negotiating contracts, and, you know, all that kind of stuff. Whereas before, you know, it was we really had to be aggressive and trying to get ourselves to the table. And now we’re invited to the table, you know, frequently enough that, you know, we can, we can hardly keep up with the demand. So, so that’s a good

Shiro Hatori
do you mind explaining what you mean by a by first instead of build first, just for the audience?

Terrill Thompson
Yeah, well, that’s, you know, in a university where you got a lot of IT talent, you got programmers, developers who are capable of building something, and you have a need, like, for example, email, you know, back in the early days of the internet, you know, there’s a need for people to send messages back and forth using email. And in those days, the University of Washington decided, how are we going to solve this problem? We’re going to build an email client and so we built pine And that for many years, you know, was the email client that most people were using at the University of Washington. And it was widespread, a lot of people were using that. And so and we, we built our own course management system. So whereas today we use Canvas, primarily, and a lot of institutions use Canvas or Blackboard, you know, products like that. We built our own initially. And so there’s there’s that that decision point, you know, do I build, we build our own and then have a team that does design and development and support? Or is it? Can we is it just more cost effective to buy something that’s already available? And you know, have a smaller team that supports that, but rely on the vendor to do our thing?

Shiro Hatori
Thanks for explaining that a lot. It helps I think the audience understand what you meant. Do you think that the industry as a whole hired industry, from an IT perspective? Are they moving more towards that model buying first? The second part of that question is, do you think the that’s better for the ally or accessibility committee community as a whole? Like to put the responsibility into those vendors? And is Do you think that I’ll move things forward faster?

Terrill Thompson
That’s a That’s a great question. And I know that I can speak for the the overall higher education landscape. I do at least in I think most colleges and universities, just my, my own, you know, observations, I do think that as a whole, it’s moving towards buy rather than build. But there may be, you know, large research universities, like, like our own, you know, where, yeah, they haven’t started moving in that direction yet. But just from my perspective, that seems to be the trend. And but as far as, you know, is it better for accessibility? I, you know, I’m gonna have to say not necessarily, because it’s a lot easier to reach out to the in house team, if there are accessibility problems and say, Hey, here’s an accessibility problem, can you fix it, and they, you know, we’ll fix it, that’s been our experience, you know, with the internal products that we’ve developed and maintained, much easier to get them to change. Whereas with a vendor, you know, we are at the mercy of the vendor, and we try to get accessibility built in the contracts. And, you know, and, and, you know, we are pretty unique at the University of Washington, in that we, we collaborate extensively with vendors, and, you know, help them to understand our perspective and point out where problems lie, and try to help them prioritize, and, you know, some vendors are really receptive to that. And if we get really close, you know, working relationships, but we’re still at the mercy of them to prioritize those changes and build those changes into their product. And we can’t just get it done like we could when things were built in house. But on the other hand, you know, if it’s a vendor product, they’ve got a lot of different customers, it’s not just us, and the more all of their customers talk about accessibility, which is happening more and more. And I see this, you know, in my engagement, like with EDUCAUSE and other national groups, you know, more universities are, are talking about accessibility and have policies in place that require accessibility, and are demanding accessibility from the vendors. And so So I think the needle is moving a little bit and having, you know, having a vendor solution that is fully accessible, or that you know, where that vendor has bought into accessibility, then then yeah, that can definitely be a plus. But we’re still not at that point yet. I think, you know, most of the products that we work with, still have accessibility problems, and we still need to work with them to help them, you know, both understand and prioritize accessibility, to the point where we’re not excluding anybody, you know, who wants to use those products or needs to use those products?

Shiro Hatori
Have it? Thank you so much. I had a kind of question, sitting in the back of my mind about your Liaison Group as well. I’m a marketer, I work within marketing. I had been my whole life and I’m curious how many how many marketing folks are a part of that group prayer, because they’re responsible for making social posts and you know, other marketing assets? Maybe in collaboration with other web UX people about making things accessible on the web, you know, digital, it How’s their involvement in those groups?

Terrill Thompson
That’s a good question. And I don’t I don’t have a number up top of my head yet there. But we work we work closely with the central marketing team University Marketing Communications, and they’re really a key The key partner because they manage the, you know, the homepage and all of the, you know, themes and kind of standard widgets that they’re encouraging people to use, and they develop sort of core, core PowerPoint templates, you know, that are on brand and, you know, so they, they play really a critical role, you know, in accessibility and, you know, are highly visible, they’re sort of the front face of the university. So they’re a key partner. And there’s another organization I haven’t mentioned yet, which is the IT accessibility task force. And that is a higher level group that was formed many years ago reports directly to two VP level, individuals and, and it was originally formed with my boss, the director of accessible technology services, and the director of website services within University Marketing Communication, as the co chairs. And so, so it’s always been a partnership between those two groups, you know, technology, accessibility and marketing. So they, you know, from the beginning of that group, were a key partner in all this. And, and, you know, the task force is, has expanded to include many, many groups who are, you know, have our key stakeholders in it, and making sure things are accessible. But marketing has always been, you know, kind of at the front seat of the table. And yeah, a key key partner and all the work that we do

Shiro Hatori
love to hear at cat one, one thing I’m trying to drive home with this mini series, and some of the content we’re creating, in house, here it comes 3d is, you know, leading, leading with accessibility, not just following and, and so marketing the options you have for physical accommodations on campus, you know, marketing, that not just having a pair, but marketing it, saying, like, hey, we have these resources, you know, same for digital, right? showcasing your efforts to it, creating accessibility standards page, but going beyond that, and showing how and your dedication to it. And so, in making those pages, easy to find on the website, quite frankly, as well, you know, making sure that you can find it. And so, that’s one of the key things we’re trying to lead with as well. So I love that sounds like at the U DUB, there’s a lot of efforts with marketing, which is really cool to hear. Kind of along the same topic here. Marketing Tools, and, you know, different things we talked about in our intro call. One thing we talked about with tools and making sure they’re accessible is with maps. I was talking about maps with you and you said, you know, I said that they’re just kind of a visual tool. So they probably accessibility isn’t a strong component of it. But you know, you said, hey, you know, wait up, it’s, you know, it’s not just a visual tool. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Terrill Thompson
Yeah, and that’s actually the, you know, going back to your question of buy versus build. Yeah, the campus campus maps is a good example of that, where we, you know, we need a campus map, right, that was the decision point. And we decided to build one. That’s what we have done historically. So we always had our own, you know, campus map that we’ve maintained ourselves. And now we’re kind of crossroads where, yeah, we’re revisiting that. And now we’re looking to buy, and I don’t know whether we have officially signed a contract with concept 3d or not, so I can’t really speak to that. But, but that is the direction we’re headed is, you know, having a commercial solution, you know, to provide our campus map. And, and so what is a campus map? You know, what function does it serve? You know, there was a day where if you’re standing in the middle of a college campus, and there’s no driving, right, so it’s, you know, pedestrian traffic, you’ve got your map that you have unfolded, unwieldy thing that’s blowing in the wind this big, and you’re trying to figure out, Where am I? And how do I get to where I want to get and, and, you know, using a traditional map, some people are skilled at map reading. And they, you know, this, they could do that they could figure out, you know, from an aerial view, where they are and where they need to get. Not everybody has that skill. Some people have no eyesight at all, and so they’re not going to be using that map. But even people that do have eyesight, eyesight, or you know, have, you know, spatial challenges or whatever, and they can’t translate what they’re seeing on this piece of paper to the world around them. And maybe they don’t want to get anywhere they just want to know, what is this building I’m standing in front of, and what is it for and what is its history? Because it’s a really cool building. And you know, I just want to know more about you know, when was it built and, and so there are lots of reasons why somebody would consult a campus map and a digital campus map. Just you know, opens up so many possibilities, where I can very easily get information about that building in front of me. And it’s not a visual thing necessarily, it’s all the facts about that building and which departments are located within that building. And, and I can get directions, you know, and applications like, like Google Maps, you know, have really sort of revolutionized this where I’m pedestrian, I want to get from where I am to this other building, you know, across across campus, what’s the best route for me to take to get there. And that doesn’t have to be presented visually with a line that draws on this, this map, you know how to get there, but it can be step by step. And again, Google, you know, and other mapping applications provide that kind of thing. So, so you know, that the applications are broad, you know, for a lot of different groups of users, who just need to know something about their environment. And so presenting that in a visual way for people that, you know, benefit from that is great, but also presenting it using, you know, lists and, and headings, and, you know, just kind of standard HTML makes a lot of sense to. And I would also add to that wayfinding application that people have different needs in terms of how they’re going to get from point A to point B. So you know, I’m a wheelchair user, I want to get from a building a to Building B, and I can only travel on accessible pads, I can’t use stairs. And I want to go from the accessible exit of building a to the accessible entrance of Building B, you know, and so a mapping solution that takes all of that into consideration, you know, really just opens opens up the, you know, the universe of, you know, map usage to a full spectrum of users.

Shiro Hatori
I love that. And, you know, thanks for bringing that up. Because I it’s something I wasn’t thinking of, initially before, right? Especially that what you said about just overall usage, I did the ease of use, there’s is an accessible element to that I wasn’t thinking of, and when you say that, literally, three minutes ago, I was thinking of myself, like, at an or maybe like an amusement park or a huge park, right, and you see the map kiosks. And there’s maybe like a little URL here sign, right, which helps identify your location. But that little thing might be so hard to find sometimes. And I’ve, I’ve spent time looking for that, you know, various locations. And it’d be it’s so cool to like, be able to know where you are, how you’re spatially connected to things in your environment. So I love that you pointed that out. It’s just, it’s kind of like it reminded me of the alt text and the caption conversation, right? It’s like, you don’t need to be deaf to your captions, right, it makes understanding of the information easier for everyone. And that’s why I think there’s a statistic that Gen Z, like, more more more Gen Z folks use captions now than previously, because it’s not labeled as just an accessibility tool anymore. It’s it, it’s a tool to make understanding easier. And so I thought that kind of like, maybe connect the dots between maps and get closed captioning. I don’t know why. But I appreciate you point that out. Well, I think the

Terrill Thompson
the connection is universal design, we talk a lot about and, and, you know, it’s maybe a little bit cliche, but things like curb cuts, you know, that were originally designed, you know, for people who are using wheelchairs, you know, to get up onto the sidewalk. But now you know, anybody who’s who has a load, you know, pushing the cart, pulling a cart, a baby stroller, you know, riding a skate a skateboard, for better or worse. Maybe using those, those ramps, those curb cuts. And then automatic door openers is another great example, where you know, it, I often find myself, you know, in a position, I’ve got my hands full, and I can’t grab the door handle, you know, just being able to bump that, you know, button with an elbow and have the door open. It was designed for accessibility, but it benefits everybody. And I think right, you know, there are just so many examples of that. And, you know, the examples in the digital space are, you know, growing by leaps and bounds, I think a campus map certainly would fall into that, that you know, the more accessibility features you build into your product, the more people are going to use those features, not just people with disabilities, but you know, everybody is going to find some usefulness for for those features.

Shiro Hatori
I love that. I love that you said that. I use one of those bonds every time to the automatic door openers to get my bike inside my office building because otherwise without it, I don’t know how to do it. No, it helps me out appreciate that. And it was wondering so you know, where can I audience connect with you to learn more about what you’re doing. I know you have a ton of speaking engagements all throughout the year and you’re very involved with a lot of community. So love to know where our audience can connect with you and maybe ask some questions if they’d like.

Terrill Thompson
Yeah, well, the the best place to learn about what we’re what we’re up to as a whole is our Accessible Technology website, which is uw.edu/access Tech. ACC s s te ch. And for me, personally, if you wanted to reach out, then my email is my initials, t f t, Tango Foxtrot. tango@uw.edu. And so, you know, if people have questions about it, accessibility and university, then you know, happy to, to chat.

Shiro Hatori
Amazing. And I know you mentioned some groups earlier that are have been instrumental in you know, learning more and building community outside of just your institution. Do you mind sharing those again, I know hired web is one you mentioned, which I love as well.

Terrill Thompson
Yeah, high end web is great for web, web designers, developers, anybody who does web web work in higher education. EDUCAUSE is more broad, it’s it in higher education. But there’s, there’s an accessibility ID accessibility community group within EDUCAUSE that I am active with, and they’re, you know, they’re, you know, people, people in higher education and it rolls here who are looking at doing what they do in an accessible way. And then the other was Athan, the Access Technology Higher Education Network, which is people in roles like myself, primarily people who are charged with accessibility in some fashion technology accessibility within a higher education landscape. So the website for Athan is Athan pro.org.

Shiro Hatori
Awesome. Thanks so much, Terrill. That’s it’s been an awesome conversation. It’s Glad to have you on. And thanks for our audience for joining and tuning in as well. Thanks so much. Thank you